Curse

glacialphoenix · May 17, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

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Originally Posted by Eliza Deathblade

They use a party wide heal thats pretty good for a tank and spank team build

Well, that is pretty much why it got popular during Ursan's heyday - ursans didn't need to worry about prot because conset + norn r10 gave them lots of extra armour + hp.

Frankly, though, I find that if you're going to run HB, it's most useful when you're facing heavy degen, or when you need to stay in one spot and still help heal the party. (think Sebelkeh - you can get one monk to camp the altar and hit heal party every so often)

Jeydra · May 17, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

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Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

I don't see how a hb monk will be superior to a hybrid heal/prot monk in general play.

What if your partner is an ER Elementalist?

glacialphoenix · May 17, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

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Because prot sucks and redbarring is for pros.

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Given that WoH is likely to be nerfed there's a good chance HB will be used even more.

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As far as HB...they were doing the same back before WoH was buffed and LoD was nerfed. "Wat? no LoD??? STFU n00b!" They would rather see their health bars go back and forth like a stereo eq display than actually see them stay consistent above 50%. Yet, with the same logic, no one ever asks why someone doesn't have WoH, which I think is better than HB.

No, today I got asked - for the first time - why I brought WoH:

Person who complained was a HB monk who promptly ragequit.

My response was: ...someone objects to me bringing prot?

Wish Swiftdeath · May 18, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

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Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

No, today I got asked - for the first time - why I brought WoH:

Person who complained was a HB monk who promptly ragequit.

My response was: ...someone objects to me bringing prot?

you should be happy, it's very likely that person would have been a liability.

glacialphoenix · May 18, 2009, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

you should be happy, it's very likely that person would have been a liability.

Oh, I'm not complaining about the person ragequitting... it was simply one of the most O.O moments I'd ever had. I was used to people who didn't monk going "HB! HB!" but that's the first time I've heard someone complain about WoH - and I did not expect it to come from another monk.

I wonder if this has to do with the latest update? WoH's still fine, but I wonder how many monks think it sucks now...

Wish Swiftdeath · May 18, 2009, 11:37 AM // 11:37

They're just bad. Even in HA I refuse to run HB. I got alot of criticism initially but the leader liked me so we went with it anyway, 78 fame later they weren't complaining

.

I love using the new WoH, sure it's suffered a little decrease but when I'm playing I use it more efficiently than other monks so I barely notice any difference. 190 heal is good enough, if it isn't then A. Your prot sucks, B. You're arenaring and didn't preprot.

afya · May 18, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

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Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Oh, I'm not complaining about the person ragequitting... it was simply one of the most O.O moments I'd ever had. I was used to people who didn't monk going "HB! HB!" but that's the first time I've heard someone complain about WoH - and I did not expect it to come from another monk.

I wonder if this has to do with the latest update? WoH's still fine, but I wonder how many monks think it sucks now...

I take back my comment before about noone complaining my WoH hybrid build, since i just meet one. I went on a pug to thirsty river yesterday. When i ping my build, the other monk is like "Sigh" "Could you bring pure heal".

glacialphoenix · May 18, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

I love using the new WoH, sure it's suffered a little decrease but when I'm playing I use it more efficiently than other monks so I barely notice any difference.

Exactly - if you're using your skills efficiently you won't notice the difference. I'm thinking that some people are under the misconception that it makes a tremendous difference, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

When i ping my build, the other monk is like "Sigh" "Could you bring pure heal".

Eh, I met mine in a Thirsty River PUG, too...

I think the "pure heal" thing is maybe a bit more understandable if the other guy is running LS prot, but still.

legacyofkain85 · May 18, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

What if your partner is an ER Elementalist?

I don't quite understand your question.If u have an Er ele and a monk in your team ,well the monk should chose his bar so its not redundant to the ele's bar,because the ele will be able to spam prots,infuse health and heal party's with no downside,except enchant removal.

JDRyder · May 18, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

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Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Eh, I met mine in a Thirsty River PUG, too...

I think the "pure heal" thing is maybe a bit more understandable if the other guy is running LS prot, but still.

Why were you using 2 monks in Thirsty river >.<

Snow Bunny · May 18, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

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Originally Posted by JDRyder

Why were you using 2 monks in Thirsty river >.<

In HM, you need 2. When shit auto attacks for 70 you can't mitigate it all yourself.

glacialphoenix · May 18, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

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Why were you using 2 monks in Thirsty river >.<

1. HM.
2. I could probably solomonk it with guildies, even in HM, but not with a PUG.

maxxfury · May 18, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Solo monked it all day for guildies and for a few pugs to kill time...in Hm.

Its not that hard really, at all. I think only one time was there a SY up in a team. And only one fail were someone decided to rush in and ignore the call to wait for timer.

[word of healing][patient spirit][spirit bond][dismiss condition][shield of absorption][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][guardian]had it covered pretty easily.

On topic, i really dont think id have managed it solo with a HB, even speccing in for ps and aegis.

Jeydra · May 18, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

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Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

I don't quite understand your question.If u have an Er ele and a monk in your team ,well the monk should chose his bar so its not redundant to the ele's bar,because the ele will be able to spam prots,infuse health and heal party's with no downside,except enchant removal.

Say your ER Elementalist is using one of the bars I like to run (which also in my opinion is superior). That means no Heal Party, but yes Life Attunement, Spirit Bond, Prot Spirit and a copy of Infuse.

Do you really think the WoH Hybrid will do better here than a HB Monk, when the Elementalist can spam prots but not heals?

glacialphoenix · May 19, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

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Originally Posted by maxxfury

Solo monked it all day for guildies and for a few pugs to kill time...in Hm.

I don't doubt that it's possible, but - well, you said you had an SY in one , and that people failed because someone ran forward and ignored timer...

I don't, in general, trust PUGs - I expect at least one person to be an idiot. (Also, heaven forfend the PUGs actually trust you to solomonk...) Seriously, when you go in there and see PUGs still going "lf 2 HB monks"... Like I said, I'd gladly solomonk HM 6 player for guildies. (I like solomonking with people I trust.) I wouldn't do it for PUGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

On topic, i really dont think id have managed it solo with a HB, even speccing in for ps and aegis.

My issue with HB is that I can't spec in for the prots I want. I've seen people asking monks to run HB + LS prot, which makes sense, I guess. I would definitely not try soloing with a HB bar.

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Do you really think the WoH Hybrid will do better here than a HB Monk, when the Elementalist can spam prots but not heals?

Be kind - he did say general play. I know the ER ele is out there, but I'm not sure how often it sees play. (No, I'm not debating it's efficiency, just saying that I don't think it's used very frequently.)

legacyofkain85 · May 19, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

Say your ER Elementalist is using one of the bars I like to run (which also in my opinion is superior). That means no Heal Party, but yes Life Attunement, Spirit Bond, Prot Spirit and a copy of Infuse.

Do you really think the WoH Hybrid will do better here than a HB Monk, when the Elementalist can spam prots but not heals?

No i guess not since the Er ele will cover most of the prots,than u have more options u can add infuse to the Er ele bar (if its not a hero) and do amazing healing and protting ,u can stay pure prot and have a hb monk if u want more party healing ,because lets face it hb is meant for gole+heal party mainly.But if u have an Er ele on the team with prots and infuse i would just run another prism ele with resto for support or a n/rt resto.
So to conclude,im not trying to say Hb is bad or woh is far superior,but depending on the situation one or the other will always be superior.

Jeydra · May 20, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

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Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Be kind - he did say general play. I know the ER ele is out there, but I'm not sure how often it sees play. (No, I'm not debating it's efficiency, just saying that I don't think it's used very frequently.)

By general play I thought it's meant general PvE (eg. the Zaishen quests, which bring you all around the GW world), not general PuGGing (which I'll admit, I've not see any other ER Elementalist except Elnore).

@above - why would you run a Prism Ele or N/Rt Necro, do they heal more than a HB Monk?

Xenomortis · May 20, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

@above - why would you run a Prism Ele or N/Rt Necro, do they heal more than a HB Monk?

They're more reliable than a HB monk and they have more solid energy management than a HB monk - GoLE isn't wonderful, it merely suffices.
Also, I find players who run a N/Rt or ER healer on their player bar tend to be more competent than players who blindly copy a PvX Wiki HB bar.

glacialphoenix · May 20, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

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why would you run a Prism Ele or N/Rt Necro, do they heal more than a HB Monk?

I've run both N/Rt healers and HB monks, and I greatly prefer N/Rt healer to HB monk.

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GoLE isn't wonderful, it merely suffices

This is exactly it. GOLE only lasts for two spells, and it's got a 30s recharge. Soul Reaping, on the other hand, gives you virtually infinite energy (unless your party really does suck that bad at killing.) Heal Party is heavy on the energy : 15e on a monk. Kaolai is 10e. Without Holy Haste or Healer's Boon, Heal Party takes 2 long seconds to cast: at 12 Healing, it heals 66 health; at 16, it heals for 78. Divine Favour for Heal Party only applies to you - so you're the only one getting the benefit of that. Kaolai, at 12 Restoration, heals for 70, casts at 1 second, gives you +10 armour. If you've got Herald's insigs on your armour, make that +20 when you're holding it.

For the partywide heal, I'd take Kaolai > Heal Party any day, especially on a N/Rt, where I don't have to worry about energy. I don't have to fit GoLE in (even if I could) because Soul Reaping provides all the energy I need. I don't have to worry about HB getting dshot or stripped. In short, Kaolai is worthwhile without me having to take up two extra slots to use it to maximum efficiency.

Jeydra · May 21, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I really don't see why you think Kaolai is superior to Heal Party. Heal Party is going to heal more even without Healer's Boon (14 spec, since you have it on a Monk not a Necro or Elementalist), it is going to cast equally fast (since you've got Healer's Boon) and it recharges a whole lot faster (2s vs. 25s). Its drawbacks are the higher energy cost, but you've got GoLE which as you agree, suffices. You don't need overkill energy any more than you need overkill healing. So long as you've got enough energy that's good enough; of course if you've got really super energy management (aka. Ether Renewal) you can put it to good use maintaining Life Attunements, but I'm sure you'll agree that that is not something any other build can keep up with.

You might say Heal Party is overkill party healing, but that's not really the point. Low recharge is always an advantage over high recharge, because you can time when you need to use it, while if you don't need to use it you simply don't cast it. On the other hand Kaolai has the serious disadvantage of 25s recharge. This crosses a crucial boundary because it is entirely conceivable that you need multiple party heals within those 25s, and you can at best only get the healing twice (pre-cast, cast once). Especially easy to appreciate if you've used pre-nerf Kaolai.

Result: HB is going to be more straight healing than N/Rt, plain and simple. With HB Patient Spirit heals more than Spirit Light and casts faster, Dwayna's Kiss heals more as well (can total well over 300 health on the ER Elementalist), you get Cure Hex to go along, you don't have to spend time putting up spirits during which you can't heal, etc etc etc. The advantage of running N/Rt or E/Rt isn't the healing, it's 1) the unremovable weapon spells and 2) better energy management. #1 is a definite advantage, but not exactly necessary when you've got an ER Elementalist with you. This can be a strong factor in select areas, but not in general. #2 is also a definite advantage, but far from decisive, since as you agreed above GoLE suffices.

Finally, losing HB is a problem but not very major (if it were very major then ER would collapse, because ER relies even more on enchantments than HB - 10s recharge on HB too). Getting DShot on HB is even less a problem, since it has 1/4s cast. Using two slots against one is irrelevant, because in the end it's a bar vs. bar comparison not skill vs. skill. Player skill is always a matter, but I kind of assumed competent players, plus it's kinda hard to fail with HB anyway.

Somehow I get the feeling that people don't like HB because it is, well, HB, and are stereotyped against its use.